What to do after SHTF?

[fiundagner]

I have seen lots of variations on a theme in regards to defensive handgun uses. When to shoot, what to shoot, how to shoot. Now I want you to think about something else. What to do after the shooting. I am going to use a hypothetical situation and I want you to think about.

There has been a shooting in a movie theater. You or another person have responded to the shooter with lethal force and, for the moment at least, no immediate threat is present. What is the next step? You have multiple injured persons (a mass casualty incident in other words) in the theater, and a yelling screaming crowd that is running out as fast as possible. All I ask is that you make reasonable assumptions. If you don?t routinely have a mobile ambulance in your trunk, don?t say you whip out a paramedic and everything is suddenly ok.

Do you attend to the injured people around you? If so, who is on over watch, looking for a possible secondary threat? Do you take over watch for this theater or do you hand someone your weapon / the shooters weapon to cover you while you tend to the injured? Are their similar attacks going on in a different theater? Do you check the perimeter for further threats? Do you try to organize the crowd that?s congealing in the parking lot? Do you know how to triage the wounded so the critical cases get medical attention first? Has anyone called 911 yet?

Post incident management is possibly even more important than an incident in and of itself. Are you prepared to handle that until someone more qualified arrives? Have you given any thought to managing an incident other than cooperate with the police / STFU?

 

[04ctd]

that's a very loaded question. you must have an old school thought process.

years ago, they did "air raid drills" where the school kids hid under thier desk.
people used to respect authority, and look for someone to take charge.

i think now, most people would NOT acquiesce to your taking over.
most people have a "me myself & eye, get outta here now, and leave others to die" mentality

i just can't see a herd of sheeple responding well to the whole situation.

I think i would keep an eye on the perp, watch everybody leave, reload or whatever,
maybe roll the perp' over and be prepared to continue the ventilation process if needed.
and call 911 and give them the info, and just wait.

i think you would be better off to the let the sheeple handle themself, keep yourself apart from their angst, and maintain tactical awareness.

will be interesting to see what Uniformed LEO's say about taking charge of a large crowd.

 

[Enjay]

O4CTD:
Yeah, he's pretty old school. He also has the advantage of being an EMT so he's a bit used to people listening to him.

Fuindagner:
If I were the one who shot and I was very positive that the immediate threat was eliminated, the very first thing I'd do is reholster my weapon. I would NOT want to be the one holding a weapon when the cops came in, and I would be operating on the assumption that they'd be on their way. Then I'd secure my children, if they were there, and then do my best to assess the injured and to provide what supportive care I could. I'd use my eyes and ears, and probably those of the kids too, to keep a look out for another threat, but I wouldn't hand off my weapon to anyone, I wouldn't go looking for other aggressors, and I wouldn't really do anything outside the bubble of the immediate area until help in the form of paramedics and police arrived.
I understand where you're coming from, but I agree that the panicked public probably aren't going to listen, they may even be incapable of listening due to shock, and won't be willing to be organized into doing anything other than waiting for the police to show up. I also think if they a saw non-uniformed person with a gun in their hand it would incite more panic, and possibly get the armed good citizen tackled and subdued.

 

[Shrapnel762]

neutralize the threat, and finish watching the movie. those tickets and popcorn are expensive!

Actually I guess I'd return fire and head for the exit like everyone else, and find cover. Wait till the cops have been on site for a bit and things are calm, then approach them with your side of the story.
Don't forget about off duty officers. And CWPers that are praying for something like this to happen so they can go Rambo

 

[Midnight Raver]

Check the aggressor, make sure they are down and disarmed. Holster weapon if I was a defender in the situation. Forget about everyone that is fleeing, wounded people on the ground need you the most! As soon as help arrives reporting to the LEOs with your hands in plain sight is VERY important- just in case someone yells out "he's armed too, he's got a gun!". Explain the basic facts after producing ID and weapon for them(it IS evidence too unfortunately). Clam up in case you wind up needing a lawyer real fast anyway.

Personally, I would put those people that are down first- they need you the most. I sure hope somebody would do that for my family and friends if roles were reversed.

 

[Tigerstripe]

pick up my brass and go home?

 

[John Canuck]

1. Get my family and myself somewhere secure
2. Call 911 and report a shooting
3. If I had to defend myself, call my lawyer. If not, get some distance between myself and the scene.

 

[Clicker]

pick up my brass and go home?

Ding, ding, ding.............we have a winner!

 

[Midnight Raver]

pick up my brass and go home?

Ding, ding, ding.............we have a winner!

I just pissed myself laughing! :lol:

 

[fiundagner]

brass and go home?

Naw gotta leave the brass. It counts as evidence too. (i do wonder if i get to keep my mags and unexpended ammo though. i've had to many of both of those go missing from "secure" storage areas to want to let them go)

And I don?t think of it as old school thinking, I think of it as responsible thinking. Nothing does more damage than a mob, and a panicked crowd is a mob. I should also mention that EMS is not allowed to respond to a scene before it s declared "clear" or "scene safe". So if there are injured people at the scene of a shooting you have to wait for the police to arrive, respond, and "secure" the scene. I saw an article recently where it took police 4 hours to enter a home where they knew there was a wounded person, because they could not determine if an active shooter situation still existed.

More randomness I saw somewhere. In any given emergency response instance 10% (approximate number, but is particularly prevalent in mass causality incident (simple definition of a mass causality incident is any incident where the number of causalities is greater than the response available)) of the people in the crowd want to help, and the bigger the incident the more people show up specifically to help. Many, if not most, professional emergency response agencies leave a spot in the incident management plan specifically for those people. If someone takes charge and asks for assistance, or gives clear, concise instructions (you call 911, you wad up some napkins and hold pressure on that wound, you find someone to get the lights turned on in here, you go and check the rows for additional injured people etc etc etc) you will get help and assistance. If police arrive and see someone directing the situation they are less likely to shoot that person out of hand, weapon or not

 

[Tigerstripe]

what was the prize ? bring it to the shootzenfest.

clicker thanks.

Grace jumped when i started rolling on floor laughing.

 

[11B3XCIB]

Don't forget about off duty officers. And CWPers that are praying for something like this to happen so they can go Rambo

I'm worried about getting shot by a jumpy, trigger happy CWP carrier if I ever have to drop someone in a public place.


As far as the original situation goes, I think 04CTD got it right when he said most people would remove themselves from the premises. If anyone stays, quickly poll them and find a medical professional. If none are available, get them triaging and providing pressure on wounds. If people can walk (ambulatory) collect them all in one spot because they are going to be prioritized based on wound severity.

While that is going on, you need to make sure the people who hauled ass don't come back in. Close doors, post a "guard" to only admit LEOs/EMTs. Even management of the place can contaminate the crime scene.

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body. Resist the urge to unload the weapon(s) but make sure NO ONE comes close to the body, and continue directing traffic from there.

Someone already said it, but lawyer up!!! Better safe than sorry. Holster the weapon so a previously mentioned CWP with wet pants doesn't end you, too.

 

[John Canuck]

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body.

Why?

 

[fordnut]

I think that I may just agree with John...I don't know if I would stay around...

If I was in the middle of something like the theater shooting and took out the shooter, I think I would just walk away...I don't need my name in the paper...

I also don't want the legal problems...

I don't think it would be the wrong thing to do...you saved lives by taking the shooter out...just go away. Keep your name out of the news and go back to your normal life....and try to forget that you did what you had to do.....

Oh yeah....and wash you gun off with salt water....from the Cooper River Bridge or someplace handy...

Oh No...bet I just made a list...

Steve

 

[FunkyMonkey]

I don't know if I would stay around...

If I was in the middle of something like the theater shooting and took out the shooter, I think I would just walk away...I don't need my name in the paper...

I also don't want the legal problems... Steve

Not going to weigh in on the moral question - you may be right, but...

You've just turned a clean kill into a potentially huge legal problem. Public place, multiple witnesses, maybe security cameras? I know I don't want to be looking over my shoulder the rest of my life, especially after I did the right thing.

Mas Ayoob, whatever you may think of him, adressed this 20+ years ago in "In the gravest extreme" regarding just this. Good read, even if it is a bit dated.

There is also a high profile case of a shooting somewhere in the northeast a while back, can't remember the case, I'll see if I can dig it up. A guy shot and killed someone during an attempted random assault while the perps were attempting to run him over with a car in front of a relative's house. Unfortunately he only killed one of his attackers who was later arrested with a gunshot wound at a local hospital and sung like a canary to police giving them all the details. The shooter meanwhile had disassembled his Glock, tried to dispose of it and hide. It didn't work, he got caught and the jury didn't take too kindly to the apparent "cover up" attempt. Turned a clean kill into a legl nightmare, guy went to jail IIRC.

Shoot, shovel, shut up is asking for too much (additional) trouble for me.

 

[John Canuck]

I don't necessarily think walking away and doing nothing about it is the proper action. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. However, there is nothing forcing me to hang around in a theater after being forced to defend myself to find out there was a guy in the next theater doing the same thing who is now behind me about to shoot me. I'm not interested in how many shooters there were, saving the world, performing CPR, or any of that other stuff. I have a responsibility to my family and getting them (and myself) to safety is job number 1. I can call 911 and my lawyer from the safety of the other side of the parking lot.

 

[dreamerofdreams]

If I was not involved in the shooting (taking down the BG), and the area was safe, either my husband or I would be doing triage while the other stood guard for other threats. I'd probably be on guard, since my handgun skills are better, but we are both trained in either role.

If one of us was involved in the shooting, and there is no more threat, holster guns and remain watchful and wait for police. I might leave the immediate scene (go outside) but I wouldn't wander off totally. In this case, whichever of us didn't shoot would stay with whichever of us did as a witness.

 

[11B3XCIB]

I'm going to make sure no one tampers with the firearm(s), the body, or other evidence because my rounds are in the guy and I'm not walking away from it. I'm going to The only time I'd leave the body is if I could hear another active shooter engaging somewhere else in the building. Maybe I just have a different outlook on gunfights.

Even if someone else gets the kill, I'm going to stick around and deal with civilian wounded and setting up temporary security.

 

[John Canuck]

I assume you are responding to this question:

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body.

Why?

What you've outlined is why you feel that your plan is right for you. However, what you said was:

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body.

I asked why. So, why do other people need to stay with the body if they don't feel it a good idea?

 

[11B3XCIB]

I assume you are responding to this question:

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body.

Why?

What you've outlined is why you feel that your plan is right for you. However, what you said was:

If you are the one who dumped the shooter, YOU need to stay with the body.

I asked why. So, why do other people need to stay with the body if they don't feel it a good idea?

I've outlined why I think stayed with/near the body is a good idea. But, I can't make up anyone's minds for them. I'm saying what I would do. If you want to take down a shooter and then pop smoke, go right ahead. I don't understand your questioning. I said what I feel is the right thing to do; if you disagree, then O.K., whatever.