FunkyMonkey
Well-Known Fanatic
Another topic regarding someone stopped and harrassed for carrying a gun made me want to post some excellent advice I read awhile back. Sadly, the original link no longer works, and I didn't copy down the original author's name. While it pertains to open carry, which we obviously don't have (yet), it is still good advice. It's a long read, but worth it.
EDIT: Thread title edited for clarity
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I think most of us that have been ?detained? have felt this apprehension. We sometimes forget that the police are not talking to us because they enjoy a friendly conversation; neither do they want to do us any favors. When they start talking about handcuffs or arrest, they either genuinely do not know the law (unlikely) or they are disappointed at your lack of anxiety of them and their authority.
This is based on my (too many) experiences with law enforcement officers:
When you don?t respond properly to their low level intimidation, they may take it up a notch at a time until one of two things happen; you become compliant, or they reach a line in the sand they don?t want to cross. Of course, they also have the option of just letting it go, and hopefully that?s what will happen, but there are times when they may want to force compliance. To do that they use intimidation.
The first level of intimidation is presence. They approach you and stand nearer to you than you may be comfortable with, one will likely flank you and stand in your blind spot, both will have their hands in front of them at the ready position. They know they?re embarrassing you in front of your significant other and the general public, that?s part of the plan. 95% of the population will immediately respond to these actions with apprehension and compliance. When you don?t, the officer may suspect you are mentally unbalanced or a lawyer (or both).
The next level is the demand for identification. 95% of the population believes that you must obey any order given by a police officer. If you refuse or otherwise display a lack of appropriate trepidation for their authority, they have two paths to take; take the whole thing further, or appeal to your desire to be helpful and your desire end the encounter quickly. The second path usually involves dialog like, ?Look, I don?t want to arrest you, you seem like a good guy, just give me your ID and we can get out of here.? This is a bluff. If they could arrest you ? they would. They aren?t paid, and they don?t get bullet statements for their performance reports, by doing favors, but by making arrests. You can certainly be polite when you refuse their requests/demands, thus playing along with their whole ?friendly? nonsense, which lets them know that tactic isn?t working on you. In my case, the officer used ?friendly repetition? and asked repeatedly, even throwing in a personal favor to further entice me to comply. (He tried to get me to surrender my CPL so he could check the expiration date for me. What a guy.) In the case cited above, the poster was complying but also verbally objecting at the same time, so the officer had to regain the high ground by taking it up a notch.
This is where the officer gets into dangerous territory because he?s hoping that he will find something to justify his actions, up to and including this point in time, or hoping he can BS his way out if he?s ever called to the mat over the incident. Up to this point, his supervisors will probably back his actions, even if his actions weren?t completely legal. The rules of Terry are easily overlooked when a handgun is involved. You don?t have to agree with that, just understand the reality. This is why it?s so important to have a witness, preferably an audio or video recording. The officer is standing on the line in the sand now; he can walk away or cross over. It?s very hard to walk away, it?s a pride or ego thing. If he decides to cross the line, he will probably handcuff you and take your identification. Under the law, he can only pat you down for the presence of weapons during a Terry seizure. How does a wallet feel like a weapon? Well, they can always claim that a razor blade is easily concealed in a wallet, and your wallet is easy to reach even while cuffed. Expect to be verbally berated and lectured. He wants you to be amenable, he wants to hear that you agree with his position that you conceal or not carry in that place. Meanwhile, his partner is running your name and possibly the serial number on your gun. They?re fishing at this point, hoping that something will give them justification for this whole event. That?s illegal, but it?s all they have. They don?t care that the prosecutor won?t press charges, or if he does that it will get thrown out in court, they need a reason. When you come back clean, he can either let you go with a stern warning while implying the whole thing was for your benefit, or move up to the next rung.
Arrest is pretty rare actually. If you?ve held out this long and they decide to arrest you, they either believe they?re right (again, very unlikely) or they?re trying to teach you a lesson. The lesson has nothing to do with your handgun, and everything to do with teaching you to respect their authority.
So, how does one prevail when the scenario begins to become apparent? Where does one decide to get off the ladder - to tuck tail and comply?
First, remember that arrest is very rare in any of the anchor states (PA VA WA UT NV AZ etc) where OC is established. Second, KNOW the laws in your state and KNOW your rights. Study Terry stops as well as what the limitations are on the police if you are stopped, detained, or arrested. Confidence is your best tool. Remember, if they could arrest you ? they would. They wouldn?t waste time giving you a stern lecture, they would talk to you enough to get you to incriminate yourself and then just slap the cuffs on.
We shouldn?t see so many posts in these forums where the conversation with the police officers are so long. It?s futile to argue with them! They are not going to ?learn? anything from you, even if you have the entire volume of firearms laws printed and in your pocket.
The FIRST thing out of your mouth in any police encounter (that you didn?t initiate by calling them) should be, ?Am I being detained?? Everything hinges on the answer to that question. The rules and limits are different for a simple conversation, a detainment, and an arrest. You need to establish, right from the start, what the officer is doing so you know what your obligations and the officer?s limitations are.
Remember, the officer can only legally seize you if he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you are involved in a crime. He cannot rely on you giving him the articulable part during the conversation; he has to have that first. If you are not being detained, politely wish the officer a nice day and WALK AWAY. If the officer says yes, that he or she is detaining you, immediately ask, ?For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?? There is, after all, the possibility that their actions are justified and there is a reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a crime. If you are being justifiably detained and you can help the officer, do so. If a guy wearing the same color shirt as you just robbed the 7-11, your cooperation can help the officer get back to looking for the real culprit.
If they cannot articulate a real crime for which they suspect your involvement, you need to begin objecting to their seizure. I say ?real crime? because I once was told that I was being detained ?because you?re carrying a gun?. Well, that?s not, all by itself, a crime. Feel free to point that out while you ask for a supervisor. If the law in your state does not require you to produce a concealed weapon permit or license when you are not carrying concealed; don?t. Are you worried he may arrest you or cite you for not doing so? Eh, so what. This is why it?s important to KNOW the law. It would be best if the supervisor arrives and defuses the situation before it comes to arrest, but don?t be so intimidated by the possibility that you waive your other rights. If they?re foolish enough to actually arrest you, STOP TALKING. From the point they tell you you?re under arrest, say absolutely nothing other than the information they need for your booking sheet (name, address, etc.) until you receive competent legal advice. It?s unlikely it will come to that though. Think about it, the officer is so antagonized that he?s being verbally abusive to you, but he?s willing to ?do you a favor? by not arresting you if you would just comply. Recognize it for what it is; a bluff.
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Original link (broken): http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/16757-2.html
EDIT: Thread title edited for clarity
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I think most of us that have been ?detained? have felt this apprehension. We sometimes forget that the police are not talking to us because they enjoy a friendly conversation; neither do they want to do us any favors. When they start talking about handcuffs or arrest, they either genuinely do not know the law (unlikely) or they are disappointed at your lack of anxiety of them and their authority.
This is based on my (too many) experiences with law enforcement officers:
When you don?t respond properly to their low level intimidation, they may take it up a notch at a time until one of two things happen; you become compliant, or they reach a line in the sand they don?t want to cross. Of course, they also have the option of just letting it go, and hopefully that?s what will happen, but there are times when they may want to force compliance. To do that they use intimidation.
The first level of intimidation is presence. They approach you and stand nearer to you than you may be comfortable with, one will likely flank you and stand in your blind spot, both will have their hands in front of them at the ready position. They know they?re embarrassing you in front of your significant other and the general public, that?s part of the plan. 95% of the population will immediately respond to these actions with apprehension and compliance. When you don?t, the officer may suspect you are mentally unbalanced or a lawyer (or both).
The next level is the demand for identification. 95% of the population believes that you must obey any order given by a police officer. If you refuse or otherwise display a lack of appropriate trepidation for their authority, they have two paths to take; take the whole thing further, or appeal to your desire to be helpful and your desire end the encounter quickly. The second path usually involves dialog like, ?Look, I don?t want to arrest you, you seem like a good guy, just give me your ID and we can get out of here.? This is a bluff. If they could arrest you ? they would. They aren?t paid, and they don?t get bullet statements for their performance reports, by doing favors, but by making arrests. You can certainly be polite when you refuse their requests/demands, thus playing along with their whole ?friendly? nonsense, which lets them know that tactic isn?t working on you. In my case, the officer used ?friendly repetition? and asked repeatedly, even throwing in a personal favor to further entice me to comply. (He tried to get me to surrender my CPL so he could check the expiration date for me. What a guy.) In the case cited above, the poster was complying but also verbally objecting at the same time, so the officer had to regain the high ground by taking it up a notch.
This is where the officer gets into dangerous territory because he?s hoping that he will find something to justify his actions, up to and including this point in time, or hoping he can BS his way out if he?s ever called to the mat over the incident. Up to this point, his supervisors will probably back his actions, even if his actions weren?t completely legal. The rules of Terry are easily overlooked when a handgun is involved. You don?t have to agree with that, just understand the reality. This is why it?s so important to have a witness, preferably an audio or video recording. The officer is standing on the line in the sand now; he can walk away or cross over. It?s very hard to walk away, it?s a pride or ego thing. If he decides to cross the line, he will probably handcuff you and take your identification. Under the law, he can only pat you down for the presence of weapons during a Terry seizure. How does a wallet feel like a weapon? Well, they can always claim that a razor blade is easily concealed in a wallet, and your wallet is easy to reach even while cuffed. Expect to be verbally berated and lectured. He wants you to be amenable, he wants to hear that you agree with his position that you conceal or not carry in that place. Meanwhile, his partner is running your name and possibly the serial number on your gun. They?re fishing at this point, hoping that something will give them justification for this whole event. That?s illegal, but it?s all they have. They don?t care that the prosecutor won?t press charges, or if he does that it will get thrown out in court, they need a reason. When you come back clean, he can either let you go with a stern warning while implying the whole thing was for your benefit, or move up to the next rung.
Arrest is pretty rare actually. If you?ve held out this long and they decide to arrest you, they either believe they?re right (again, very unlikely) or they?re trying to teach you a lesson. The lesson has nothing to do with your handgun, and everything to do with teaching you to respect their authority.
So, how does one prevail when the scenario begins to become apparent? Where does one decide to get off the ladder - to tuck tail and comply?
First, remember that arrest is very rare in any of the anchor states (PA VA WA UT NV AZ etc) where OC is established. Second, KNOW the laws in your state and KNOW your rights. Study Terry stops as well as what the limitations are on the police if you are stopped, detained, or arrested. Confidence is your best tool. Remember, if they could arrest you ? they would. They wouldn?t waste time giving you a stern lecture, they would talk to you enough to get you to incriminate yourself and then just slap the cuffs on.
We shouldn?t see so many posts in these forums where the conversation with the police officers are so long. It?s futile to argue with them! They are not going to ?learn? anything from you, even if you have the entire volume of firearms laws printed and in your pocket.
The FIRST thing out of your mouth in any police encounter (that you didn?t initiate by calling them) should be, ?Am I being detained?? Everything hinges on the answer to that question. The rules and limits are different for a simple conversation, a detainment, and an arrest. You need to establish, right from the start, what the officer is doing so you know what your obligations and the officer?s limitations are.
Remember, the officer can only legally seize you if he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you are involved in a crime. He cannot rely on you giving him the articulable part during the conversation; he has to have that first. If you are not being detained, politely wish the officer a nice day and WALK AWAY. If the officer says yes, that he or she is detaining you, immediately ask, ?For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?? There is, after all, the possibility that their actions are justified and there is a reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a crime. If you are being justifiably detained and you can help the officer, do so. If a guy wearing the same color shirt as you just robbed the 7-11, your cooperation can help the officer get back to looking for the real culprit.
If they cannot articulate a real crime for which they suspect your involvement, you need to begin objecting to their seizure. I say ?real crime? because I once was told that I was being detained ?because you?re carrying a gun?. Well, that?s not, all by itself, a crime. Feel free to point that out while you ask for a supervisor. If the law in your state does not require you to produce a concealed weapon permit or license when you are not carrying concealed; don?t. Are you worried he may arrest you or cite you for not doing so? Eh, so what. This is why it?s important to KNOW the law. It would be best if the supervisor arrives and defuses the situation before it comes to arrest, but don?t be so intimidated by the possibility that you waive your other rights. If they?re foolish enough to actually arrest you, STOP TALKING. From the point they tell you you?re under arrest, say absolutely nothing other than the information they need for your booking sheet (name, address, etc.) until you receive competent legal advice. It?s unlikely it will come to that though. Think about it, the officer is so antagonized that he?s being verbally abusive to you, but he?s willing to ?do you a favor? by not arresting you if you would just comply. Recognize it for what it is; a bluff.
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Original link (broken): http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/16757-2.html
